The Mess Hall

Mike Kostyo (00:01)
On this episode of The Mess Hall, we dive into why Gen Z isn't hosting parties, we discuss the decline of coupons, and our guest Chase Openchain joins us to have a messy conversation about nostalgia and whether we've gone overboard in our pursuit of the past.

Mike Kostyo (00:25)
welcome to the Mess Hall, the podcast from Menu Matters, the food industry consultancy focused on human-centric data-backed innovation. This is where we have those messy conversations about topics and issues that matter to the food and beverage industry, which may not have a simple solution and which often requires some nuanced thought. I'm Mike Castillo, Vice President of Menu Matters, and I'm joined as always by Maeve Webster, founder and president.

Mike Kostyo (00:50)
For the first episode, we thought we would talk about either some research that we've done or something that we've posted on LinkedIn.

for our Friday fives. And particularly, there was one thing that you posted on your Friday five today that I wanted to ask you about. So our Friday five we post every Friday, and it's five things that we think is interesting or unique or just kind of caught our attention or that we learned from articles that we've seen across the internet or other research. And so you posted something today about partying. Can you talk a little bit about what it was and why it interested you?

Maeve Webster (01:22)
Yeah, so ⁓ you're correct. I actually did not know this. The government does a regular study of how people spend their time. And it's across a number of different ⁓ activities and different ways people can spend their time. And as part of this, they actually track how often people are either hosting or attending parties.

And based on the research that's been done year over year over year, there's been a steady decline and a fairly significant decline in how much Americans are partying, but more to the point how much younger Americans are partying.

I mean, it was really an enormous drop and it's not just pandemic driven. mean, certainly the pandemic created an enormous drop, but it's continued to drop since then. And I think, as we think about

the loneliness epidemic, the issue that younger consumers are having with finding connections, making connections. mean, Mike, you've said in a number of presentations that idea that it seems in the moment like a good idea not to go out and to huddle in bed and to stay in and cozy up. But when you do that night after night after night, the individual events might seem okay, but after months and months of never going out,

there are ramifications, people stop inviting you, you fall out of the habit of going out, now suddenly you aren't as close with people, you have a hard time socializing, and while, I don't know, it could be argued that when, certainly when I was younger, my generation might have partied perhaps a little bit more than we needed to, at the

I think it does speak to how people are learning to socialize. How are people learning to interact with not just people they know, but other people they don't know in weird situations and unexpected situations dealing with

things that come up that you might not know in the moment how to deal with, but learning how to deal with it. And I think we are losing that capability, which is probably going to create very long-term issues for us culturally, for us socially, for us economically, the way we're spending money, what we're spending money on. But if you think about it, it's huge opportunities.

for our industry, which is all about hospitality and not just the hospitality we give, but the hospitality that our industry can help other people give, right?

Mike Kostyo (03:44)
When I think the nice thing about the article, when I read it, because sometimes I think these types of generational change articles are kind of blame me. I remember as a millennial, everything was you guys are buying all the avocado toast and you're not buying houses. And it was like, what's wrong with you? And instead, this article wasn't like, what's wrong with Gen Z? Go party. You're ruining the economy. It was on a deeper level what is happening with this generation.

that they are not partying. And if that is going to cause negative ramifications, how do we solve for that? I mean, they talked about the fact that people aren't drinking as much. And to your point, it's not like anybody is saying we need to binge drink more in order to keep the economy afloat. It is like, how do you create spaces that people want to have a party in or socialize in that? Maybe alcohol isn't a factor.

for young people these days, they might be afraid to be in a situation where somebody is taking a video of them and that does go online. I don't know, do we create spaces that are tech-free spaces where you feel a little bit more uninhibited? Like you said, I think there's a lot of opportunity here to look at the deeper thing that's happening and then solve for that as an industry.

Maeve Webster (04:52)
I do agree with you. think there has been this growing issue with younger consumers. And by that, mean younger millennials as well as Gen Z. The degree to which it bleeds into alpha will be interesting to watch

Well, I do think that Gen Z is a fascinating generation in that they are more self-aware, probably because unlike, again, when I was growing up, since I am slightly older than you are, but when I was growing up, I mean, there was talk of Gen X, but Gen X never read about Gen X, right? Gen X knew people were talking about us, but we didn't read about ourselves. It was still...

really knew to be talking about a generation to the degree to which they started talking about Gen X. But then as soon as millennials happen, like you were saying, you were very aware of how your generation was being discussed. And obviously in the food industry, you were being discussed at an all year. And I think Gen X or Gen Z is even more so like that. I mean, they're hearing about themselves constantly. So I think there's a generational self-awareness that is...

significantly higher than any other generation. And I think as a result, they will potentially, I want to say self-correct as though there's something inherently wrong, but there are issues that they are dealing with. They're beginning to self-correct in some ways by moving away from technology a bit, even though they are a tech native generation. think they are the ones who are pursuing the grandma hobbies and the quiet spaces and the tech-free

vacations and so I don't think at all it's inevitable the gen alpha will be like that and I don't even think it's inevitable the gen Z will be like this for the rest of their, their existence.

Mike Kostyo (06:33)
I see it all the time in social media where the algorithms almost perpetuate the demographic stereotypes where you see Gen Z calling out millennials for, I don't know, we wear our socks wrong or we have gray houses and then that keeps getting fed back and forth. I think it's an echo chamber that continues that constantly.

And I also think too, to your point about solutions, I think the tech side of it is such an important part of it. So I posted something today about couponing and how people aren't using coupons as much anymore. And so I forget the numbers, but it was something like 750 million coupons were redeemed last year and 10 or 20 years ago, it was billions. I mean, like a truly massive, I actually, I think it was 20 billion coupons.

were redeemed 20 years ago was the number. and part of it is we've gone to digital coupons and and I actually have just gotten into digital couponing and before I go to the store, I scroll through, but it takes time. mean, it takes over an hour to go through all of those coupons and actually that government research that you're talking about. So they've looked at how people spend their time when it comes to shopping. And we spend about 15 minutes per weekday shopping now versus 20 minutes a day.

I forget when it was like a decade ago or something like that, when you think about, in terms of the article that you posted, part of what they talk about is screen time and that a lot of it has shifted to screen time. And in that article, you hear a lot of people talking about, I don't have time to clip coupons

And yet we are, we're in front of our screens seven hours a day, eight hours a day. I mean, sometimes it's less that we don't have time to, throw a party or we don't have time to coupon. And it's more that we sit on our couches and we scroll through social media for hours and hours,

Maeve Webster (08:21)
I think you're absolutely right. I think it's what we're prioritizing or even to a certain degree how we're not prioritizing that, that whole idea of falling into the rabbit hole and scrolling for an hour, an hour and half for some people for hours. You essentially are,

absenting yourself from making any decision at all, right? You are removing the need to prioritize, to make decisions, and just allowing everything to shut down. And that's hours of time we could be spending doing a lot more important things than scrolling through Instagram.

Mike Kostyo (08:56)
Well, and too, because it is ours. remember there was the article in the Atlantic, which I think is just one of the most important articles to come out, whether it was this year or last year, where they talked about the shift. I think it's called the antisocial century and the shift away from the things that we used to do, bowling and going out and things like that.

to screen time and it's something I forget what it was where the shift happened when TVs came into our houses then we just watched more and more TV. it I mean, over the course of a day, it's hours over the course of a week. I mean, you're talking about significant chunks of time. I think on the other hand, the both articles made the really good point that also some of these things were predominantly activities that were organized by women. So, whether it was a party in a household,

or whether it was couponing both make the point that it's not a negative thing that that women went to work But that idea that who is going to do this work, who's going to throw parties when you are limited because you are going to work or that maybe men can pick up some of the slack here and they can throw a party I think that side of the conversation is really interesting as well.

Maeve Webster (10:05)
think it also really speaks to a degree the lack of innovative solutions that have come out. mean, certainly there are solutions. I'm not saying that there are, and some interesting solutions, but why have there not been solutions that take into account the fact that, let's say, guys need to be...

taking more responsibility for throwing parties, but what does that mean? How do men go about planning a party different than women go about planning a party? What are the solutions that will help people go about simply organizing what it means to have people come over and all the different types of parties that can be thrown? You don't need to go crazy to have a bunch of people over at your house. You just need to make sure you have enough food and have enough beverages. So I think...

how are we not, not just our industry, but the tech industry and all the other industries, how are we not thinking through the real human focused solutions that need to be happening? And what do we all as different industries need to start doing to investigating? You know, like to investigate what people actually need to get this stuff done. Like you were saying with the coupons.

I don't clip coupons, which is stupid. I've got the apps on my phone, but I never honestly plan that well when I go shopping, right? Brian's a much better planner than I am. He's a much better planner. I am not as good a planner. And so I'll forget about it. And then I won't really know what I'm gonna buy. And why on earth do I need to make that much of an effort just to get a discount? Like in response to your LinkedIn, the whole thing when I'm shopping on, I don't know, Madewell and J.Crew, like all the websites.

the do I need to enter a promo code? I'm on your website, I'm shopping, why are you playing this game that you're clearly hoping I don't enter the promo code, right? In order to get the discount, just give me the discount, why am I working this hard? I'm spending money there anyway.

⁓

Mike Kostyo (11:55)
Yes, and that's when you start searching and you're like, are there any promo codes out there? There's whole websites that collect promo codes and no, super, super interesting.

Mike Kostyo (12:20)
OK, so I am so excited to welcome our first guest who is Chase Openchain. So we've known Chase for quite a bit now. We've had the chance to work together a little bit, maybe on some future upcoming projects together.

And we brought him in for this episode just because, you are such a, creative thinker. when we were thinking through this episode on nostalgia, we were like, who can take this kind of esoteric out there topic and really kind of think through it in a way that is interesting and, just has a lot of thought behind it. And you were the first person that came to mind. Both when Dave and I were talking, we were like, yes, Chase will be perfect. So.

Chase Obenchain (12:54)
wow.

Mike Kostyo (12:56)
So just intro yourself. ⁓ Yeah, really. So just intro yourself and who you are in your background in your company.

Maeve Webster (12:56)
So no pressure.

Chase Obenchain (13:01)
Sure, sure. Well,

thank you so much. That is extremely high praise and, you know, coming from the two of you, two people who, mean, equally so, I look up to both of you and I think you are two of the most inspiring people to me in the food and beverage industry. you know, like good feelings to start the podcast. Just a big group hug at the start here. Yes.

Mike Kostyo (13:05)
Hahaha ⁓

⁓

This is the podcast. The whole podcast is just us. Yeah, yeah, yeah, really.

Maeve Webster (13:23)
A lot of ego stroking for the next 15 minutes.

Chase Obenchain (13:26)
But so, for any listeners who don't know me, hello, Chase Obanchain. I am a culinary innovation consultant. A lot of my work is kind of focused around helping companies and organizations really understand their own brand and align their culinary vision with their kind of broader company mission. I find a lot of times people bring me in to help create a sort of a culture really of creativity and just...

Mike Kostyo (13:27)
You

Chase Obenchain (13:50)
bring a better mission from a foundational standpoint to their company or their organization and really channel a kind of fundamental innovation from start to finish and really just help people do what they already do but understand it a little bit more and do it better. I find that a lot of times companies think they do one thing and they think that their consumers, their customers want something and then...

Mike Kostyo (14:11)
Mm-hmm.

Chase Obenchain (14:14)
When you go and talk to them, they don't realize that that's not actually true and they're a bit misaligned. So lot of what I do is really helping them see through that fog and build something from the ground up. That's me.

Mike Kostyo (14:17)
Mm-hmm.

Perfect, perfect.

Well, I think that's such a good lead into the conversation that we're about to have, which is, have we overdosed on nostalgia? Because I'm sure you've seen it, we've seen it in our own clients where when you're talking to them about their innovation platforms and where they want to go in the future, so much in recent years of that conversation has been around nostalgia. And can we go back to things that we've done in the past and try them out again? And these are very nostalgic generations we hear over and over.

Chase Obenchain (14:34)
Mmm.

Mike Kostyo (14:54)
I know at the beginning of this year and even the past couple of years when all of those trend reports come out, nostalgia is in there and then all the new nostalgia as well. So is some of this stuff. I just saw Maeve roll her eyes. So we're going to have a great conversation about our feelings and nostalgia here. That's why we're having this conversation. But just to get us started, I just wanted to ask you both,

Chase Obenchain (15:09)
Yes.

Mike Kostyo (15:17)
Are you nostalgic people or kind of what is your view of nostalgia? I guess I would say I'm a very nostalgic person by nature. I get very tripped up in the past and thinking through experiences that I had in the past and those rose colored glasses about how great they were. I tell, yeah, I tell me all the time about that, but Pizza Hut. for me, we used to go to Pizza Hut growing up.

Chase Obenchain (15:35)
⁓ yeah.

Mike Kostyo (15:43)
And it was one of the old fashioned Pizza Hut's with, that roof, the salad buffet when he walked in. Sonja was our waitress. We did the Book It program. So we would tell Sonja that, we read these books and we got the sticker. We got our personal pan pizza. And that just that experience, when I think through, I imagine that look of the restaurant and experiences that we had there, I get very nostalgic for them. And even on social media these days, you're fed.

Chase Obenchain (15:45)
buffet.

Maeve Webster (15:47)
Yeah.

Chase Obenchain (15:48)
You

Mike Kostyo (16:09)
so much of it. So actually before this episode, I did a search on Buzzfeed of how many articles there are that have the word 90s in the title, and it's over a thousand of them. And so we're just fed this nostalgia constantly, remember this, remember this thing. And you do fall into that trap so easily where, I mean, the 90s were fine.

Chase Obenchain (16:18)
yeah. Yeah.

Maeve Webster (16:19)
yeah.

Mike Kostyo (16:29)
But clearly the 90s weren't the greatest decade of all time. So I don't know. think I do. I have a real push and pull relationship with nostalgia and how I try to view things and try to know if you guys are the same way at all.

Chase Obenchain (16:32)
Check.

Maeve Webster (16:42)
Jace, I'll let you go first, because I'm like, this is my feelings are.

Chase Obenchain (16:43)
Well, alright, sure.

Well, Mike, I think as seems to be the case oftentimes when we speak, have almost word for word some of the same thoughts in our notes. I have like, Vie en Rose by Louis Armstrong in here, of Life Through the Rose, got it, Glasses and the 90s and I'm right there with you. I think that, people just fundamentally will always look back and yearn for

Mike Kostyo (16:53)
⁓ yes! ⁓

Chase Obenchain (17:10)
kind of yesteryear with this kind of misconstrued pleasure or euphoria or just this, things were simpler then, right? We want to go back to times when we don't have the same challenges that we have and face today. And we don't know the challenges that we face in the future. So, you know, we don't really have to worry about that as much. But I'm right there with you. I think there's this odd yearning where

Mike Kostyo (17:19)
Mm-hmm

Mm-hmm.

Chase Obenchain (17:33)
We want to go back to times that seem simpler, especially childhood times, and evoke these sort of memories of either our grandma's kitchen or a school cafeteria. I'm right there with you. For me, it's Cracker Barrel does it for me. Yeah, I remember when I was on my internship from the CIA, I used to go to Cracker Barrel every single day after I got out of work because, I got out of work at...

Mike Kostyo (17:47)
Mmm, interesting.

Wow!

Maeve Webster (17:58)
Holy

cow, super customer.

Mike Kostyo (18:00)
haha

Chase Obenchain (18:00)
Mm-hmm.

I got to work at 5 a.m. every day and so I would go in at about 6 a.m. and to your point, Marie was my waitress. They'd sit me down at the same table. They didn't even ask me what I wanted to order. They just knew and they'd drop it off at my table when I got there. And yeah, I just think that there's this natural desire to go back to these times and these places but I find that oftentimes when you try to exactly replicate them, you face more disappointment than you do.

Mike Kostyo (18:08)
Mmm, see?

⁓

Yeah. When before, because Maeve and I were both at the Wall Street Journal Conference and the CEO of Cracker Barrel was there. Of course, she got asked about the new design for Cracker Barrels and how much pushback there has been against that.

Chase Obenchain (18:29)
replication of the feeling.

Maeve Webster (18:33)
on my rant.

Mike Kostyo (18:46)
And I think part of that is the nostalgia for what Cracker Barrel should look like. And Cracker Barrel itself is a very nostalgic brand where it's harkening back to a very old timey America. So have you seen the, you you don't have to talk negatively about Cracker Barrel, but have you seen the redesign and do you have any reactions just, as somebody who's so passionate about the brand and went there every day for a while?

Chase Obenchain (18:51)
Of course.

That's their whole brand.

Maeve Webster (19:01)
You know what I That's right.

Chase Obenchain (19:08)
Yes, yes, I have seen the redesign. I have been to Cracker Barrel two times in the last three weeks because I was on a road trip with my family. It's always where we stop on our road trips. And to your point, I would say there's definitely different feelings when I go in there. You can feel the menu is distinctly different, right? Even just like the fundamental way that the menu is presented. It used to be like a long, no pictures piece of paper with all of the different things just on one side.

Mike Kostyo (19:19)
Mm-mm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Chase Obenchain (19:35)
And now it's very much your standard chilies or Applebee's type menu where you follow it open. There's all kinds of big bright pictures of everything. There's lots of LTOs. There's a focus on different sort of like beverage specials and things like that. There's meatloaf sliders with bacon jam and pepper jack cheese. And you're like, I don't know that that feels nostalgic to me.

Mike Kostyo (19:54)
Hehehehehe

Chase Obenchain (19:57)
I love Cracker Barrel, but to me, I think that part of what makes Cracker Barrel so special is the feeling inside. I don't necessarily know that changing everything that people already love about it will drive new customers in the same way. But then again, that's just my own personal opinion. I love Cracker Barrel.

Mike Kostyo (20:11)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, really? Yeah,

Maeve Webster (20:17)
I mean, I agree with everything that both of you said. There's no doubt that nostalgia has very positive impacts on people, right? It is your memories, whether they're your memories or like collective memories of, let's say, the 50s, right? What the 50s were like, right? So that kind of collective acknowledgement that certain periods seem more nostalgic than others. I guess, as I think about it, I'm not a super nostalgic person. There are things

Chase Obenchain (20:31)
Yeah.

Mike Kostyo (20:31)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

was gonna say, yeah, you've

never struck me as super nostalgic or hyper nostalgic in any way. Yeah.

Maeve Webster (20:46)
Yeah, no, and I wasn't like

my parents weren't super, my mom was more nostalgic than my dad. And so there are things that I'm nostalgic for to a degree, but I do think that there's a bit of an issue that we've kind of fallen into, right? And this hyper focus now culturally, and again, not just in the food industry, but across fashion and ⁓ entertainment and all of it, being so nostalgic.

Mike Kostyo (20:50)
Mm-hmm

Sure, yeah.

Maeve Webster (21:13)
and focused almost exclusively on nostalgia, think is having longer term impacts. So for example, Mike, you did a great presentation on future thinking, right? And what it takes to think about the future in order to make the future. You did, it was fantastic. It was as well. How do you make the future happen? Well, you can't make the future happen if you're not actually thinking about what the future could be like.

Mike Kostyo (21:13)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. I did. Thank you. I'm just kidding.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Maeve Webster (21:37)
Brian and I were watching, we were, I don't know, we were looking for something to stream the other night and every single future forward show or whether it's a series or a movie or whatever, they're all apocalyptic. Why is the future so horrible? So the question is, are we thinking the future is horrible because we're so obsessed with how wonderful the past was or can we no longer imagine a better future? Cause all we're doing is thinking about how great it used to be.

Mike Kostyo (21:50)
Right? Yeah.

Chase Obenchain (21:53)
Yeah, it's an interesting point.

Mike Kostyo (21:58)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Maeve Webster (22:04)
And so

I think that we are falling into a social and a cultural trap here by being so focused on nostalgia as a solution to almost everything that we are now fundamentally changing what the future can end up being like because we're no longer imagining a future that might in fact be better than the past that we're coming from. And I think we're seeing that with innovation. mean, when...

Mike Kostyo (22:25)
You ⁓

Mm-hmm.

Maeve Webster (22:29)
innovation

Chase Obenchain (22:30)
yeah.

Maeve Webster (22:30)
is focused on nostalgia, it is nothing but iterative innovation. It's just taking what's already been done. And I think we are losing that transformative innovation that creates excitement and newness and pushes us forward and gets everybody to think differently. And I think it's problematic. I really do think it's problematic. And I think it's as much the industry doing it to ourselves as it is consumers potentially wanting that and maybe erroneously wanting

Mike Kostyo (22:34)
Mm-hmm.

Chase Obenchain (22:34)
Yes.

no, I was just going to say I'm right there with you, Maeve. I think that there's this kind of, and we've talked about it bit before, but this new desire to avoid risk and ⁓ just a comfortability with a lack of creativity. And there's so many companies that are already experiencing deceleration and food service and is in a tough space from a labor standpoint. And, that trickles over into a creativity and innovation standpoint. And

Mike Kostyo (23:06)
Mm-hmm.

Chase Obenchain (23:23)
Nostalgia is fundamentally something that is extremely low risk, extremely easy to adopt, and extremely easy to message because there's no new education that needs to be done on anything. ⁓ And so I think that it's just the lowest hanging fruit where we go, okay, well, we know that people miss 1950s, let's give them some more milkshakes. Or, in the world of cocktails, pre-prohibition is really coming back and that's something that

Mike Kostyo (23:34)
Mm-hmm.

Chase Obenchain (23:51)
we can just continue to hang our hats on just making old fashions and martinis and people will continue to enjoy them rather than companies saying let's take a small amount of risk and just stand out there and really align with our brand and stand by it and channel what makes us special in the first place. It's just one of those things where there's too much room for creativity that people are just choosing not to channel for the sake of avoiding risk.

Mike Kostyo (24:16)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Maeve Webster (24:17)
I agree with that. think, yes, we're facing as an industry a lot of challenges and real challenges that are creating serious operational issues, real problems with consumer behavior and all that. But at the same time, I think we've gotten a little lazy because it is the easy route to go. And I think everyone is afraid of standing out too much, kind of that idea that if yours is the head that's sticking out, it's going to be the one that's lopped off faster.

Mike Kostyo (24:35)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Chase Obenchain (24:44)
Yeah.

Maeve Webster (24:44)
But I don't know that that's true anymore. I think that all the heads that are at the exact same level has created a static and stagnant sameness in the industry. And I think as a result, the decline we're seeing, McDonald's just posted its worst traffic since the pandemic, and they're not alone, right? The whole casual dining, except for Chili's, is really struggling. And I think that...

Mike Kostyo (24:53)
Mmm.

Chase Obenchain (24:54)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Kostyo (25:07)
And what did McDonald's do?

Just bring back the snack wrap. Yeah.

Maeve Webster (25:11)
Exactly, which is fine. mean,

Chase Obenchain (25:11)
Mm-hmm.

Maeve Webster (25:13)
if it was popular, I'm not saying that that's not the right thing, but is that really going to move the needle for them long term? So I think the sameness is what consumers are reacting to. And I think a lot of consumers are like, look, if it's going to be the same thing all over the place, why am I going to spend my money? Why am I going to go out? Why am I going to take my time to do that? ⁓ Yeah, I think it's problematic.

Mike Kostyo (25:15)
No, sure, yep.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yes. Yeah. Well, because I think

it's like anything in moderation and we've gone far beyond moderation when it comes to nostalgia. I when I look at some of the brands that are being brought back from the 90s, my childhood, I don't have any great tie to those brands. Those don't need to come back. They went away for a reason. So like you said, we're scraping the barrel from some of this stuff.

Chase Obenchain (25:50)
Yeah, that's right.

Mike Kostyo (25:54)
So Maeve and I had a conversation before you joined Chase about the loneliness epidemic and she had posted something on LinkedIn about younger people not partying. And we have problems today that we actually need solutions for that the hospitality industry can solve for if we get creative. When I think about the Book It program, it's not necessarily, I think it's interesting both you and I, Chase, mentioned the person, our server that was there.

Chase Obenchain (25:59)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Mike Kostyo (26:19)
It's not even I think technically the brand that we're often so nostalgic for, it's the feeling and the person that was there that welcomed us. If you think through, what would a program that Pizza Hut develops today that helps solve the loneliness epidemic in people? Before we were trying to get kids reading, which of course we should always continue doing that, but can our restaurant be a place that brings people together? Can we have meetings? Can we have a book it program where-

If you have a meeting with a social group five times over the course of a year, you get a free pizza or something like that. I think there's actual solutions we could come up with if we got away from some of this focus on nostalgia.

Chase Obenchain (26:59)
absolutely. The experiential point of dining is fundamentally what makes nostalgia really what it is. It's not about replicating your grandma's dinner table to a tea. It's about creating the feelings and the ecosystem that invokes your grandma's dinner table, right? And...

Mike Kostyo (27:14)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes, yes.

Maeve Webster (27:18)
Right.

Chase Obenchain (27:20)
And that's

really what it comes down to. Why is Chick-fil-A so popular? Not because their chicken nuggets are the best, but it's because every time you go there, the people seem to be happy and everyone you interact with makes you feel like, I want to go back because that was a great experience. Same with Bucky's is like this huge thing in the South, but it's because every time you go in, there's people who are yelling about barbecue and having seemingly a good time at work.

Mike Kostyo (27:30)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Maeve Webster (27:32)
Yeah.

Mike Kostyo (27:36)
Yeah.

Yeah. ⁓

Chase Obenchain (27:45)
and you go in with your kid and

Mike Kostyo (27:46)
yeah, true.

Chase Obenchain (27:47)
the guy who's at the cash register hands your child a sticker every time you go through. Those are the reasons you go back.

Maeve Webster (27:53)
Yeah. I

mean, if you think about it, what we should be thinking about is how do you create new nostalgia, right? If what we've got now is simply nostalgia ad nauseam for what's happened the last two decades, four decades, seven decades, whatever it ends up being, what's going to be the nostalgia in 50 years? it going to be, I mean, are we all going to still be nostalgic for the fifties? For God's sake, you know, I'm sure it was great. didn't live for it, but how does every chain create

Mike Kostyo (28:00)
Mm-hmm.

Exactly.

Maeve Webster (28:20)
future nostalgia, nostalgia for new generations. ⁓ Mike, you and I talked about this. There was an article, this was a little while ago, about how, because everything's available to us all the time, right? Like the 50s culture, 90s culture, 80s, you can find everything all the time. It's not like it comes and goes and you don't have access to it. So will Gen Z, will Gen Alpha ever even have nostalgia if everything's available to them always? So what becomes their nostalgia?

Mike Kostyo (28:21)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Maeve Webster (28:49)
What are they looking back on at that point? What is their uniquely generational nostalgia if all they ever looked at was like Star Wars in the 80s? mean, how do we start innovating against future nostalgia and creating new nostalgia for new generations rather than constantly glorifying old nostalgia?

Mike Kostyo (28:50)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Chase Obenchain (29:03)
Hmm.

Mike Kostyo (29:06)
Absolutely, yeah.

Well, because, so there was a great study that YouGov did and the Washington Post reported on this, which is what eras are people nostalgic for? and I think their hypothesis was that it would be these very particular generations. America was the best in this century. And it's not that, it's more that people think things were better at a very particular time in their own personal lives. So we all tend to think that

music was better when we were teenagers. I think it was like 16 to 19, because that's when you're forming your own musical taste. That's when you're going to concerts for the first time, you're enjoying music. So that's when everybody thinks that, music was the best when I was a teenager. When do you think that the world was the best? It tends to be around 11 years old. You're old enough to remember it, but your parents were taking care of you. You didn't have the weight of the world on you.

When do you think that vacations and things that cost a little bit more money are the best? Tends to be when you're a little bit older, because you have the money to spend on it. So athletic events, things like that. You tend to think it's like early 20s, I think. And so to your point, if for this younger generation, the things that are so formative for them are, so food-wise, I think it tends to be 19, 20 years old again, because you're starting to go out on your own and you're starting to go to restaurants

So if we have this generation that's coming of age at 19 and 20 years old and all we're feeding them is the same old stuff that we've had for years and years. To your point, yeah, what are they gonna be nostalgic for? I mean, is it Dunkaroos and the things that I grew up with just because that's what they keep getting all the time? Yeah.

Maeve Webster (30:40)
missed opportunity, right? I mean, what a missed

opportunity for all the new things. Think about all the new things each one of us experienced when we were younger, things that were truly new that came out, right? That nobody had ever seen before, that were brand new, and how much of that are we actually getting at this point? I mean, I don't have kids, Jason, you're the only one here who has kids, so you might be seeing more of that stuff. But I feel like

Mike Kostyo (30:44)
Hahaha

Chase Obenchain (30:49)
Yeah.

Mike Kostyo (30:50)
Yes, yeah.

Mm-hmm exactly

Chase Obenchain (30:57)
Y-Yana

Tri-

Thank

Mike Kostyo (31:01)
Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

Maeve Webster (31:04)
You don't see as much of that, like the truly new, new, even iPhones, right? It's like the iterated, you know, like, what are we on, the 18th iPhone now? It's exact same iPhone that it's always been, but they just keep iterating it.

Mike Kostyo (31:08)
Mm-hmm. ⁓ absolutely. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah

Chase Obenchain (31:09)
Yeah. Yeah. Sure.

Yeah, and I think that this sort of thought process trickles over into other different industries, right? I mean, we just saw Pixar have this issue with the launch of their movie, Elio, because it's gotten incredible reviews, but no one went out to see it because people want to see more of the same. They're making Toy Story 5, right? Like, do we really need a Toy Story 3, 4, 5 in the first place?

Mike Kostyo (31:24)
Mm-hmm.

Chase Obenchain (31:39)
And I think it's because, well, it seems like there's a larger amount of risk associated with going out and creating something totally new, hoping people will enjoy it, or people just being afraid to take a risk and try something new. I think that's the other thing that we don't always touch on is maybe it's also consumers are so forced into nostalgia that they are now risk averse and don't want to try something new at all.

Mike Kostyo (31:51)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Oh, yes. Mm.

100%, yes. Yeah.

Maeve Webster (32:04)
100%.

I think that, you know, bring it back to our industry simply because we're experts in our industry. I will say that our industry is pushing more things than I think we're reacting to. And I think we imagine as an industry that we are reacting to what consumers want. But I actually think we are obsessing about things we think are going to be easy. Protein is another perfect example.

Chase Obenchain (32:11)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Mike Kostyo (32:19)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Maeve Webster (32:29)
I don't think consumers are demanding protein as much as our industry is thrilled we can just focus on protein and not worry about anything else. Right? I mean, I don't know. Do you know anybody who's saying every single day, I need more protein? Like I need to get some protein in my body. I think they're reacting to the fact that our industry keeps telling them you need more protein. Eat protein. Everything you have should be protein. Red protein, yogurt protein, ice cream protein. mean, you know, we're not over...

Chase Obenchain (32:30)
Yes.

Yes.

Mike Kostyo (32:53)
And there is that training

Chase Obenchain (32:54)
This is true.

Mike Kostyo (32:54)
that

happens of the consumer. So I think we hear that all the time when we're talking to a client and they say, we tried it and it didn't work. We tried something new and the consumer didn't go for it. it's because they don't trust you. It's exactly what you just said, Chet. It's not going to be overnight that I come into your restaurant and you put something really wild on there. mean, Maeve and I, did this research last year where we asked what are the two kind of dominating factors that keep you from being more adventurous in food?

Chase Obenchain (33:11)
That's right.

Mike Kostyo (33:23)
Number one and number two where I'm afraid I'm not going to like it and I'm afraid that I'm going to waste money on it. You have a fear immediately of trying something new. Then I go into your brand and you've been feeding me the same stuff over the years. Of course, I don't trust that. The crazy thing that you put on the menu is something that I should spend money on. I think to your point, and I think this is a good point about all of these brands, Cracker Barrel being a good example, but Olive Garden having this problem in the past is also

Chase Obenchain (33:23)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, of course.

Mike Kostyo (33:51)
How do you train the consumer over time and how do you reach out to those younger consumers in a way that they trust you to do new things, but what your core brand is, how are you staying true to that over time? How does Cracker Barrel innovate and add new things to the menu while at the same time being that old fashioned Cracker Barrel that I love when I go in there? I think that's the thing that we often hear pushback on from clients.

Chase Obenchain (34:13)
Yeah, so I used to work at Campbell's for a couple years and I was the chef of the innovation team, right? My whole position was how do we start to develop new brands, new line extensions? coming from Campbell's, mean, you don't talk about another heritage brand that people, they know red and white, right? And they know chunky and branching out past that is really, really hard. I did a lot of consumer paneling and the amount of times, if you just

Mike Kostyo (34:16)
Mm. Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

shame.

Mm-hmm.

Chase Obenchain (34:41)
even if we wanted to just lightly change, say, reduce whatever in a mushroom soup, people would not like it. People would say, no, I don't want you to change this. And similarly, if you tried to launch a completely new brand or a new line extension to a new consumer base, well, then they're also not necessarily as interested because they...

Mike Kostyo (34:46)
Uh-huh.

Maeve Webster (34:48)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Kostyo (34:51)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Chase Obenchain (35:05)
only know Campbell's for doing certain things and they don't want to take that chance and buy something that they're already not particularly interested in, right? So how do you do it? think that you have to create completely new brands that don't look like or seem like they're related at all. ⁓ And so that's a difficult thing.

Mike Kostyo (35:12)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Maeve Webster (35:24)
Yeah,

mean, it's definitely, know, transformative innovation is difficult, right? It is you're taking risks because you have to be optimistic enough that it's going to be worth it in the end. can't go into it also thinking, well, this is going to be a disaster because obviously that's probably going to end up as a disaster.

Mike Kostyo (35:29)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Chase Obenchain (35:37)
Yeah. Well, yeah, that's a good point, ⁓

Mike Kostyo (35:38)
Yeah, yeah.

Chase Obenchain (35:43)
The amount of times you hear, I've already tried that or we've already tried that and it didn't work. It's like, but that doesn't mean it's not going to work now, right? Like consumers change.

Mike Kostyo (35:47)
My least favorite phrase. Hate it. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Maeve Webster (35:52)
Right, right.

But isn't all this, and Chase, you've said it a couple of times, right? Constantly being true to your own brand, your brand strategy, your brand voice, your brand identity, you know, all of that is the key thing because even transformative innovation can happen within that. But if you're staying true to your brand identity, then it's not dissonant, right? For consumers, then they're going to get it and they're going to buy into it a bit more. But

Mike Kostyo (36:13)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Maeve Webster (36:17)
As we're talking about this idea of we've already tried it, that didn't work, this is very often it's because a lot of these brands, whether they're retail or food service, are following the trend that they've been told is growing and consumers want. And so they just say, well, we'll just throw that into a thing. And then how did that not work? Well, because it's just because it's a trend does not mean it's for you, does not mean it's it's solution to a problem.

Mike Kostyo (36:28)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chase Obenchain (36:29)
Yep, yes.

Mike Kostyo (36:33)
Clap it on. Yeah.

Hahaha.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chase Obenchain (36:41)
That's right.

Mike Kostyo (36:44)
Mm-hmm.

Maeve Webster (36:44)
It gets

right back to what we were talking about at the very beginning was we need to be creating solutions that are actually addressing what consumers need within JACE, like you were saying, what our brand actually is.

Mike Kostyo (36:55)
Mm-hmm.

Well, I was just going to say, I think for some of the brands, too, you know, when you think through it's often a heritage brand because they're the ones that have the traditional product that they can pull from that are nostalgic, but they have to be comfortable. And I know it's difficult a little bit with this, you know, growth phase and getting beyond what the brand did. You know, it's going to be difficult. It's going to be tricky for a little bit. It's not immediately going to necessarily.

out of the gates be a success for you. Olive Garden is the example I always use. So they could not get rid of that salad bowl that looked like a head of lettuce. At the end of the day, I think they were finally just like, we got to rip the bandaid off and get rid of it. And people are going to be mad at us for a little bit. But if we're going to be a modern brand, that's just what's going to have to happen. so sometimes I think that pain point, you're just going to have to get through it. That's where growth happens.

Chase Obenchain (37:40)
Okay.

Mike Kostyo (37:46)
And you also, I think, have to kind pay attention to the true consumer sentiment as opposed to just kind of the noise that's happening out there. It's very easy for people on social media to get mad about something and it seems like the entire world is against you. When really it's just like a few loud people and then the media ends up kind of feeding into that echo chamber. The great example I always use is the Starbucks cups where

Chase Obenchain (38:04)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Mike Kostyo (38:13)
everybody's so mad that Starbucks changed the color of the cut. And most people didn't care. It wasn't a big deal to them. It was a very vocal group of people on Twitter at the time. so cutting through the noise, doing the research, is it 3 % of people that are just very vocal and mad about it? Maybe you do have the permission to do it.

Chase Obenchain (38:21)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, you guys have both talked on a couple of things that I want to try to remember and speak through with intention here. so, Maeve, to your point, I'm right there with you. I think that there is this disconnect where chefs are often at a certain tier of any large company and they don't make it past, let's say, a director level, right? There's very rarely, if ever, someone who has any culinary insight past a director certainly

Mike Kostyo (38:34)
I get to, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Maeve Webster (38:50)
Mm-hmm.

That's a shame.

Chase Obenchain (38:56)
almost never at

a C-suite level, right? And oftentimes that means that things start from the very top down with people who don't know food fundamentally incredibly well and know data extremely well and know business extremely well. And those things are really good to know when running a company and they're very well intentioned. But I think that it can oftentimes lead to this misalignment of brand strategy

Mike Kostyo (38:59)
Mm-hmm.

Maeve Webster (38:59)
Right.

Mike Kostyo (39:09)
Mm-hmm.

Maeve Webster (39:10)
and no

Chase Obenchain (39:23)
versus risk averse direction, right? And so there's this natural cycle that happens where very high up people will say, okay, this is what we need to do. We need to lean right back into what has always gotten us to do what we're doing. And that will allow us to be successful moving forward or we need to change everything completely. And well, one of those might be right. One of those might be wrong. And there's always,

Mike Kostyo (39:24)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Chase Obenchain (39:49)
Equally so a third option. ⁓ But there's not enough people who are in that innovation or culinary side to be able to say, how does this align with what's on our menus? What actually from a experience standpoint is happening when people are either consuming our products or they're sitting in our restaurants or driving through our drive-throughs, interacting with our team members. And being at that base level is really where people need to be. And I think that that can get lost and misaligned.

Maeve Webster (39:50)
.

Mike Kostyo (40:00)
Mm-hmm.

Chase Obenchain (40:15)
Mike, to your point in regard to... Go ahead.

Mike Kostyo (40:16)
I when I'll say on that really quick too, cause I think that's such a great, cause

how many times have we been in that room innovating and created something that we thought was really cool and out there. And then when it actually comes out and went through that entire chain, we're like, that looks nothing like what we develop. It's the safest option you could possibly put out there. Yeah. ⁓

Chase Obenchain (40:33)
Absolutely.

Maeve Webster (40:35)
And how much more often is that going to happen now that so many chain restaurants are even getting rid of their culinary groups? So now you don't even have an internal group of individuals who are committed to the brand, not to say that external, consultant chefs or, innovation groups aren't committed in a way to the brand, but it's not the same as people who are day in and day out committing themselves to what that brand can and should end up being.

Mike Kostyo (40:41)
Mm-hmm, yeah.

Chase Obenchain (40:41)
That's right.

Mm-hmm.

Absolutely.

Maeve Webster (41:02)
So I think we're going to run into this more and more over the next couple of years.

Mike Kostyo (41:05)
Mm-hmm.

Chase Obenchain (41:05)
I completely agree. There's a lot of people who don't love the brands that they represent. And that's the biggest issue is, well, if you don't love it, if you don't eat, sleep, breathe it, then how are you going to actually do any justice to what they're doing in general? And then Mike, to your point about social media, I'm right there with you. I think there's this classical hive mind that kind of stirs itself up within social media where

Mike Kostyo (41:11)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Chase Obenchain (41:31)
people, especially a few loud people will say, well, we really miss Dunkaroos, right? And, you know, Dunkaroos were good when we were in elementary school. But how many people who are now in their 30s ⁓ are like, man, I really need some cookies with a bit of icing. ⁓

Mike Kostyo (41:38)
Yeah.

Yes I see

Chase Obenchain (41:53)
And so, equally so we don't need purple ketchup to come back. We don't need green Hershey's chocolate syrup to come back. But there's this sort of feeling of if we all get together and tell ourselves that we really miss this thing, we'll tell ourselves that it was really delicious and really fantastic. And to your point, it went out of, it lost favor. went out for a reason, right? Like, yeah, it's just.

Mike Kostyo (41:56)
Mm-hmm

Mm-hmm, yeah.

For a reason, yeah. And it will never

live up to it.

Maeve Webster (42:19)
be interesting to see what happens with the snack wrap. To be honest with you, with McDonald's, I have no issue and no kind of perspective on the snack wrap itself. I never really had it when it was at McDonald's to begin with. Why I won't say that it's a good thing or a bad thing for it to come back, but given how much competition there is in the chicken

Mike Kostyo (42:22)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm

Yeah, yeah.

Maeve Webster (42:40)
fried chicken, breaded chicken, chicken sandwich, know, iteration space at this point. Yes, there's a set of consumers who clearly were very dedicated to the snack wrap and they might be thrilled that it's back, but will they? Now that there are so many other options, will they have the snack wrap and think, yeah, okay, well, you know, and then that might be the end. It'll be really, really interesting to see what happens with that and whether that is in fact the answer for McDonald's or not.

Mike Kostyo (42:45)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah. Well, and can it live up? Can any of these live up to the rose colored glasses that we're viewing the past through? so I am a member of a Facebook group for bringing back Kepler Pizzerias, which was this trip that Kepler made that was absolutely delicious. but a little part of me is like, should they come back? Because if I taste them again, there's almost no way I've been in this group for 20 something years now that 20 years of being in,

a Facebook group of one thing that it's gonna live up to that. And we see it all the time, know, the number of people who are like, don't reboot that movie. it's gonna be a CGI mess. It's not gonna live up to the thing that I had in my childhood. so can you ever even bring something back and it lives up to, what people want it to be from their past? I don't know if it's possible a lot of times,

Maeve Webster (43:49)
So if that comes back and it doesn't do well, Mike, we're gonna have another podcast. And it's gonna be the three of us talking with you about how you might be part of the problem.

Mike Kostyo (43:52)
It's yeah, I know. Yeah. Yeah.

Chase Obenchain (43:54)
That's right.

Mike Kostyo (43:58)
Well,

Chase Obenchain (43:58)
Yeah, it's a therapy session more so.

Mike Kostyo (43:59)
you know, we just had this conversation with the. Yeah, I mean, I'll just have them ⁓ for a year. I will single handedly prop up the Kepler pizzeria industry because I'll just stack them in my. But then after that, yeah. But also to our point, know, we were just. Yeah, that's right.

Maeve Webster (44:04)
Accountability slash therapy.

Chase Obenchain (44:06)
Yeah.

Maeve Webster (44:15)
It's the only Christmas gift anybody's gonna get.

Chase Obenchain (44:19)
Yeah, okay.

Mike Kostyo (44:20)
Well, we were just talking with a client about this where you're not always your consumer. Your own preferences are not always the mass preferences out there. What 2,000 of us in a Facebook group love doesn't necessarily mean that the entire world wants Kepler Pizzeria's back. But then before we get into the five questions that we'll end every episode with,

Chase Obenchain (44:39)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Kostyo (44:44)
I want to end on a positive note because I know we've kind of really shit on nostalgia here for a little bit. But yeah, seriously. But have you seen any brands bring back something in a nostalgic way or lean into nostalgia in a way that has been successful or that you thought they did a good job?

Maeve Webster (44:48)
trash yourself.

Chase Obenchain (45:01)
So I don't know if there's data to support that they've done a good job from a sales perspective yet, but one for me that I was pretty, you know, at first a bit apprehensive about and then more like actually that might make me start to buy this again is Capri Sun and bottles. ⁓ When they launched that, was like, yeah, I've always thought of the pouches and I would never just go buy pouches of Capri Sun. But if I saw a Capri Sun and like a vending machine while I'm traveling or something,

Mike Kostyo (45:01)
Ha!

Mm-hmm.

Hmm. ⁓ interesting

Chase Obenchain (45:29)
or like at a kiosk in the airport, I'd be like, yeah, cool. Yeah, Roaring Cherry. I haven't had one of these in 20 years. So I'm excited about that one, oddly enough. Yeah, but.

Mike Kostyo (45:39)
That's a good example. I remember

I wrote about that on LinkedIn and they said the reason they brought the bottles was because people kept asking for larger formats on their customer service line and they finally just like, listen, supposedly that's the story.

Maeve Webster (45:53)
You know, the only thing that I think that they did a really good job with was the last three Star Wars movies. I think, and I know that that's not a food thing, but as, as someone who grew up on Star Wars, right? Like that, if you want to talk about nostalgia for me, the original three Star Wars could be the closest thing to nostalgia. I just have a memory of going to see the first movie with my brother and my dad, you know what I mean? And just what it was like walking out of there. Like, what was that movie? That movie was unbelievable, right? ⁓

Mike Kostyo (46:00)
Mmm mmm. ⁓ yum.

Chase Obenchain (46:06)
Wow.

Mike Kostyo (46:11)
Mmm.

Ha ha.

Ha

Maeve Webster (46:21)
And then all the other ones and then the culture that grew up around it. So I think that they did a great job when they released those last three of playing with what was so great about the first movies and reintroducing those and celebrating what those original three movies were while still trying to create something new, right? Like so that it wasn't just the first of the last three was a little bit more of a replay of the first movie. But the other movies I think tried to make it new and whatever.

Mike Kostyo (46:24)
You

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Maeve Webster (46:49)
Where I think they win a rye, however, was everything that came after that, where they were like, well, those went really well, let's just dive head first into this. And then it was just like a fire hose of Star Wars stuff that after a while you're like, all right.

Mike Kostyo (46:53)
Hehehehehe

Chase Obenchain (47:03)
That's a controversial take, Maeve. There's a lot of- I don't think there's a more- there's no more like angrily nostalgic group than Star Wars fans and I- not a lot of them seem to love that last trilogy, but hey, I love that you like it.

Mike Kostyo (47:05)
I was gonna say, yeah.

Maeve Webster (47:17)
Yeah, I mean, okay. All right. Yeah, I'll dive in. I will dive

into the angry Star Wars pond if I need to. I actually, did really like when that first of the last three came out and they whipped the cover or whatever it was off of the Millennium Falcon, I had this moment where I was like, oh, there it is. And when they killed off Han Solo, I was very angry. But, know, still, I, yeah.

Chase Obenchain (47:24)
Do it.

Mm-hmm.

Mike Kostyo (47:35)
⁓

Chase Obenchain (47:40)
Understandable thing.

Maeve Webster (47:41)
I appreciate that the other Star Wars geeks can contact me separately.

Mike Kostyo (47:46)
When some of that too is again, a very passionate fan base who is a little bit resistant to change. Like you can't change the thing that I grew up with. So I think, know, to your point, Maeve, you actually like that they took it in new directions and it wasn't just like total fan service the whole time. But that's part of the argument here. Can you update things? Can you change them? Yeah.

Chase Obenchain (48:03)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Kostyo (48:08)
Mine, so I would say to bring it back home to Pizza Hut. There are these nostalgic Pizza Hut's across the country that you can visit now, which are the old school, they have that iconic roof to them and they have the salad bar and everything. Actually, of it is not even just that way. I do want to experience that again. But I think part of it too is also the fact that it is a place that you can have a meal in. So many of the QSR brands these days,

Chase Obenchain (48:19)
Cool. Yes.

Mike Kostyo (48:35)
are either delivery only, we certainly see that in the pizza space or their delivery and then you just pick up so you can't even eat in a lot of these pizza places anymore. And so the idea that, I could sit down and have that experience, but with somebody else, that to me is where, if they could bring Sonia back,

But I think that's part of it. It's just the memories that I have are more the social memories that I have. So the idea of being in a space where you're with your family or you're with friends and somebody's serving you again, I think is a big part of it. So I think they did a good job with some of them. On that topic too, I would say there's a new documentary out about.

what became of old Pizza Hut restaurants. Because they're so iconic, you see that it was an old Pizza Hut restaurant immediately. There's one that's a church, there's one that's a cannabis dispensary. They talk through the meaningful nature of brands in our communities and everything. If you look at Pizza Hut documentary, it'll come right up, but it was really, really good. Okay. The end of every episode, we have five questions that we want to ask our guests.

⁓ I'll preface by saying that, we want you to ask a question of the next guest. So we don't have one for you because you're on our first episode here. So today it will be four questions for you. so number one, and this is one we could do an entire episode about, but what is your biggest hospitality or restaurant, whatever it may be, pet peeve?

Chase Obenchain (49:36)
What could they be?

Okay?

Maeve Webster (49:47)
Let's

do that.

Chase Obenchain (49:54)
man. So I have a few. We've talked on one of them already ad nauseam during this and it's taking risks. ⁓ But the second one for me is egos on chefs. ⁓ I think that there is no more difficult to work with group than chefs broadly speaking. And I might get a lot of flak for that and feel free to come after me chefs out there. But you know,

Mike Kostyo (49:58)
Ha ha ha.

Mm.

Mmm, mmm.

Chase Obenchain (50:20)
As someone who has been called a chef many a time in my life, I think that it's one of those odd things where it's the only, aside from doctors, the only profession that we have to call them by their profession. And it's seemingly this incredibly highly touted, highly respected thing that people really like hinge their entire personality around the fact that at the end of the day, they cook food. ⁓ And really,

Maeve Webster (50:32)
Mm.

Mike Kostyo (50:43)
Ha

Chase Obenchain (50:45)
I mean, I think that that's a really intimate thing to be able to do is to cook food and provide an experience for someone. But the historical context and the way that chefs have modeled themselves from a disciplinarian, militaristic, hard to deal with, hard to change their mind sort of standpoint. We as chefs are just as much at the kind of

We are just as much a part of this difficult problem of taking risks and innovating and breaking new bread and ground. I think that it's because people are so set in tradition in their ways and they say, have to do this and therefore I am. If I don't, then I'm not the chef that I think I'm supposed to be. For me, people, especially chefs, need to take themselves a little less seriously and just be willing to fail and mess up and laugh about it because that's the only way you're going to move forward.

Mike Kostyo (51:36)
Okay, I think anybody could use that advice. ⁓ What is something that... I won't say particularly chefs, I think you're allowed to say that. ⁓ What is something that just over the years, whether it's food or just in general, that you've changed your mind on?

Maeve Webster (51:39)
Yeah, yeah.

Chase Obenchain (51:40)
Hahahaha

Fair

so I'll give one really short and silly one, and then one that's a bit more insight. strawberries are one I grew up near a strawberry field and I really, really, early on had a terrible experience with them. So I hated them forever. all the way up until like my mid twenties. And then I was like, I need to come back around to strawberries. So I've trained myself to really like strawberries again. ⁓

Mike Kostyo (51:55)
Yeah.

Maeve Webster (52:13)
I'm confused.

Chase Obenchain (52:14)
But you know, hey, it just takes a little bit of time and exposure. And then secondarily, know, trend reports for me is another one that I think that like I used to view as like this gospel of like, trend report came out. Everything that I think about for the next year is based on this. And now we've talked about it a bit, but it's something that I think is it's a good starting point for inspiration saying, how can I think about this and what's the data that's going on out there? And I find this interesting, but not saying I have to concretely stick to it.

Mike Kostyo (52:23)
Mmm, mmm.

Maeve Webster (52:41)
Yeah, totally. I think the next time we have cocktails though, Chase, we're going to dig into this whole strawberry issue. So. Brace yourself. ⁓

Mike Kostyo (52:41)
Good one, good, you're speaking our language, yeah.

The strawberry thing. Yeah, really?

Chase Obenchain (52:48)
You

Mike Kostyo (52:49)
What is one book, TV show, movie, restaurant, anything under the sun that you'd rec...

Chase Obenchain (52:54)
man, ⁓ so many good ones. A book that I really love is The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron. It is so good for... I tell it to everybody who does anything creatively. Keep this book on your desk at all times. It's just a really great thing for people, food and beverage or not, just to be able to look at themselves and say, what is the thing that I do that's...

Mike Kostyo (52:59)
I bought it because of you. I have it behind me. Yeah

Maeve Webster (53:01)
I know, yeah, likewise.

Chase Obenchain (53:18)
different from anyone else and how do I actually think through what I think through, what makes me special from a creativity standpoint and how do I channel what I do into something that's actually something I can articulate and define as my either brand or my being. yeah, Artist's by Julia Cameron. It's incredible.

Mike Kostyo (53:35)
Love it. And then last one. Yeah. What is your question for our next guest?

Chase Obenchain (53:39)
So for me, think what's the biggest sector for potential growth and innovation in food services is the one for me.

Mike Kostyo (53:46)
Hmm, interesting.

⁓ good one. All right. Well, we're at the top of the hour. Thank you so much, Chase. This has been an absolutely phenomenal conversation. We could do this for another two hours, I'm sure. thank you so much.

Maeve Webster (53:49)
Nice.

Thank you, Chase.

Mike Kostyo (54:05)
This has been the Mess Hall, the podcast where we have messy conversations about the food industry brought to you by food industry consultancy, Menu Matters. If you're interested in data-driven, human-focused insights from two passionate food industry experts, we invite you to visit menumatters.com to find out more about what we do and how we can work together. As always, I'm Mike Costio, joined by company president Maeve Webster. We hope you'll join us for the next episode.

where we'll have another messy nuanced conversation about the topics that matter to our industry.